But didnt you think that our history give us a little more experience? USA have only 2 centurys... You are a young contry.

NEWS FLASH: You guys went through a revolution at the same time we did, as well as a number of regime changes in the 19th century.

Our countrymen didn't just materialize out of thin air 228 years ago; many were parts of familes that had been farming the country for over 100 years prior, but as subjects of the crown. And then, ALL ultimately immigrated from various countries (American Indians excepted).

i would suggest a good, long look at French history in South East Asia and North Africa. Might be enlightening...

"i would suggest a good, long look at French history in South East Asia and North Africa. Might be enlightening..."
I totaly agree with you bakerstreet : i said the same since beginning : none of ours countrys are clean... no problemes about that.
I have read some of your blog bakerstreet ( it took me some time but i have find that interesting ).
At the end of reading, my feeling was that lot of our conflict may have his roots on religion. In france religion is not melt in politics due too our history. We try to think behnd of good and evil like nietzsche or like an autor i like a lot : Montaigne.
In the "essais" from montaigne, he describe the catholic spanish ppl invading south america and killing the primal natives to push them to catholiscim and take their land.Spanish ppl are sure to be the good because they are "civilized" and catholic.
Now what french ppl at this time : a superpower that have politics guided by God ( the vocabulary use by GB in speech (crusade - good vs evil etc ) is something that we doesn t like at all.)
I think that europe is like uranus because we have alredy know lot of religion war on our soile. When usa have attack afghanistan, if u rememeber, there was no objection in france and we send troops too because it was to eliminate a danger and help a population. For irak we immediatly understood that it was for oil. And usa was pretexting mass dest weapon ( no comment ) - al quaida ( no comment ) - and to give the democracy in irak ( cf spanish vs south america ).

@ at guideon : the history of a country do not begin with democracy. Democracy is good, but it s not the ultime level of human beeing. I don t know if you do too , but when we have a politic reflexion, in europe, we use reference like the roman republique for exemple, or fact that have happen during the "rennaissance" ( i dont know how to translate that : it s the periode between 16e and 17e centuries). When i say your history is shorter it s not to insult you, it s for trying to make you understand that our referals are different from yours, with lot of war and blood. Wich lot of different political regime. With lot of etnic movement. lot of military conquest ( win or lost ) and all of that make that we take more precaution with war.
In exemple : viet nam war seem to be very important in the way you decide a war or not. We have lot of viet nam, and some of this viet nam were in our soile...
friendly.

I understand what you are trying to say. But you are not correct in your assessment.

What I am trying to say is that, even though the current constitution of the United States was written in 1789, our founding fathers didn't come out of a political vaccuum. Many of the leaders of the Revolution were, in fact, the wealthiest people on this continent at the time. The reason they were wealthy is they were given land and title by England, something that comes as a result of service to the crown. This means that many of their ancestors had been influential in England, a culture that is far older.

My reference to France is apt. Your revolution in the late 1700's established a new government in France, putting you on approximately even footing as us. However, you also spent much of the 1800's embroiled in the various campaigns of Napoleon and Napoleanic supporters. To speak about how your government is "much older", then, I would have to ask, which is older? The government? Absolutely not, as I have shown. The culture? No, as our country consists of various cultures, that have been brought over from countries such as yours. The people? No, again, I have shown this.

Now you have been very eloquent and respectful in your arguments, however, you have also stated the reasons that many Europeans feel justified for their snobbery against the US, and they just don't hold water.

Salamader, what do you say to some of your more illustrious fellow citizens (e.g., BHL or Revel) who describe anti-Americanism in France as a kind of national illness? Is there anything to this?

Now as for the reverse (anti-French feeling in the US), I tell you with all seriousness that it is something of a joke. France and its people are the butt of many jokes but I don't think there is the deep, seething resentment towards the French that the French have towards Americans.

In fact, central to the sort of jokes one hears is precisely this absurd superiority complex you seem to have. I can't remember who it was, but it might have been Hazlitt who wrote: Pity the poor French, masters of all the arts; supreme in none.

Despite this conceit that Americans are stupid, ignorant, simple-minded etc., you might consider that we are an impossibly large and diverse land, such that while you and your countrymen might like to think of us all as a bunch of stupid, fat cowboys, you might also take a moment to consider that Americans win 80% of the Nobel Prizes and more than our fair share of Olympic medals. Of course none of that glory should rub off on me, as I am simply a fat, lazy, stupid (but not ignorant) American.

"Salamader, what do you say to some of your more illustrious fellow citizens (e.g., BHL or Revel) who describe anti-Americanism in France as a kind of national illness? Is there anything to this? "

Well I just finished reading Revel's last book "the Anti American Obsession" a couple of weekes ago, and i can confirm that what he says is true. there definetly is an anti american sentiment in france, however i think we can blame this on 2 things:
-French Medias (dominated by the left, big time)
-the french political, and intellectual classes.

this makes your average french fellow quite uninformed or rather misinformed of what the US are about.
For example one can quite easily point out the fact 40% of americans have no healthcare cover, but they'll never look into the reason why that is so, we'll have reports about this or that in america, but never the straight facts and their reasons.
so obviously a strong impression that the US are going to hell as developped in france, to the satisfaction of the political classes who feed on this sentiment to warn of the "danger's of ultra-liberalism" (economic liberalism that is).

it allows them to instill a fear of the future into the french population, while dissipating the blames they should be subjected to.
i could further devellop this point and talk about the "cultural exception" which most french do not really care about and so on...
all that to say that in the great scheme of things your average american fellow and french fellow would in fact get on pretty well together it it wasn't for a linguistic barreer, and the deeprooted socialist leanings instilled by the socialist left for the past 30 years (well i could devellop this as well as there are other reasons, but this is the major factor).

Oh man, that's how you score Sheryl Crow? By brushing your teeth, showering, and using deoderant? Darn, so that is what I was doing wrong all these years!


They also found a white towel but mistook it for evidence that he was about to quit.

For example one can quite easily point out the fact 40% of americans have no healthcare cover,

Sheesh, even John Kerry doesn't put it that high!

For all those interested in the complete military history of the French Military, have a good laugh at this site. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

lol Snobisme . you are ridiculous: middle age was full of wars in europe and if you fall back in antique its sure you gonna find lot more. If you have a brain, in a discussion you look the both side: win and lost. I m sure i can do the same with usa easy lol.
My conclusion on you ppl is that at the exeption of bakerstreet, your are not able or open too a discussion.

Salamandre:

"For irak we immediatly understood that it was for oil. "

I suggest you look into your nation's relationship with Hussein. Chirac began his political career rubbing cheeks with Hussein, and your nation was a major economic and military supporter of him right up to the invasion. I think the past year has shown that we aren't there for oil, but even if we were...

Which do you think is more evil, removing an evil dictator responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in the name of Halliburton, or fattening him and empowering him in the name of TotalFinaElf so he can stay in power? Your nation stood to make billions keeping a patently evil dictator in power, and it was one of the main opponents to removing Hussein in the first Gulf War.

I really don't mean to offend, though it may appear so. Many of us just feel very strongly that the French people are easily as brainwashed about Iraq as US citizens, if not more. Your nation was one of the main columns holing up a horrible tyrant, all in the name of money, and then you claim we are removing him in the name of money.

You can see how this is puzzling.

hehehehe. Accurate or not, Salamandre, SnobIsMe's link is pretty funny.

'The First Rule of French Warfare; "France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman." '
'The Second Rule of French Warfare; "France only wins when America does most of the fighting." '

Well worth a read.

Aw,c'mon n lighten up.

That comment was to Salamandre. This is not a serious discussion.